Suppression in East Palestine Ohio With Scott Smith and Lesley Pacey

On February 3rd 2023, a Norfolk Southern train carrying thousands of gallons of hazardous chemicals derailed. It was later set on fire in part to clear the tracks.

Residents have reported illnesses that they believe are the result of exposure to the chemicals. Now complaints are growing that the government’s and EPA’s response has failed them.

An independent testing expert who has been helping residents of East Palestine, Ohio better understand what they have been exposed to is being subpoenaed by Norfolk Southern in what has been described as an attempt to intimidate him.

Also the Government Accountability Project, a storied whistleblower organization, has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to shed light on what it believes could be censorship of citizen groups and residents attempting to share information on the East Palestine disaster.

In this episode of Breaking Green, we will talk with Scott Smith, an independent testing expert and CEO of US BioSolutions LLC.  He frequently works on the ground in contamination events to help affected communities by investigating and bringing people together to diagnose and solve water contamination events. Smith has been to more than 60 oil and chemical disasters in the US and abroad. 

He is a graduate of Baylor and Harvard business school. He was recently subpoenaed by Norfolk Southern regarding his work in East Palestine.

 We will also talk with Lesley Pacey, who is an environmental investigator with the Government Accountability Project. Her daughter Sarah was diagnosed with leukemia at age 4 in 2004. She is a cancer survivor, now 23 years old. While living on the Eastern Shore of Mobile Bay, Lesley noticed several other children who had Leukemia.  Lesley demanded a study by the Alabama Department of Health that eventually identified a cancer cluster. 

Recently she has focused on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, helping chemically exposed workers, residents and tourists with chronic health issues seek justice in the mass tort related to the disaster.

She works with the Government Accountability Project to educate lawmakers and propose measures that will protect coastal communities from toxic chemical dispersants.

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Marilyn Leistner, who is mentioned in this episode was the last mayor of Times Beach Missouri, a town wiped off the map by dioxin contamination.

FOR BACKGROUND ON TIMES BEACH VISIT:  TimesBeachMissouri.Com

Transcript

Steve Taylor: 0:00

Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by Global Justice Psychology Project. On Breaking Green, we will talk with activists and experts to examine the intertwined issues of social, ecological and economic injustice. We will also explore some of the more outrageous proposals to address climate and environmental crises that are falsely being sold as green. I am your host, steve Taylor. On February 3, 2023, a North-folk Southern train carrying thousands of gallons of hazardous chemicals derailed. It was later set on fire, in part to clear the tracks. Residents are reporting illnesses that they believe are the result of exposure to these chemicals. Now complaints are growing that the government's and EPA's response has failed them. An independent testing expert who has been assisting residents of East Palestine better understand what they have been exposed to is being subpoenaed by North-folk Southern in what has been described as an attempt to intimidate him. Also, the Government Accountability Project, a whistleblower organization, has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to shed light on what it believes could be censorship of citizen groups and residents attempting to share information on the East Palestine disaster.

Steve Taylor: 1:19

In this episode of Breaking Green, we will talk with Scott Smith, an independent testing expert and CEO of Biosolutions. Scott frequently works on the ground at contamination events, supporting communities by investigating and bringing people together to help affected communities diagnose and solve water contamination events. Smith has been to more than 60 oil and chemical disasters in the US and abroad. He is a graduate of Baylor and Harvard Business School. He was recently subpoenaed by North-folk Southern regarding his work in East Palestine.

Steve Taylor: 1:54

We will also talk with Leslie Pacey, who is an environmental investigator with the Government Accountability Project. Recently she has focused on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, helping chemically exposed workers, residents and tourists with chronic health issues seek justice in the mass tort related to the disaster. Leslie works with the Government Accountability Project to educate lawmakers and propose measures that will protect coastal communities from toxic chemical dispersants. Leslie Pacey and Scott Smith welcome to Breaking Green.

Lesley Pacey: 2:42

Well, thank you for having us.

Scott Smith: 2:44

Steve, it's great to be here and thanks for having us.

Steve Taylor: 2:49

Scott, let's start with you. You are what many would call an environmental activist. You've been described as an independent testing expert, but I think a large part of your work is providing independent testing for citizens and communities at toxic sites to fill in gaps that the federal agencies are leaving. Could you please tell us a little bit about your work, what it is and why you do it?

Scott Smith: 3:16

Yeah, steve, thanks for that description. I'd say also with where we are in this country. Now you can call it activism what you will. I've become a rather militant fighter for constitutional rights and free speech, because what is going on with these government agencies and multi-billion dollar companies is worse than I've ever seen it, with East Palestine being a significant event and turning point for the country. A little bit about East Palestine. Over social media, some residents reached out to me because I've been doing this for 17 years. I've been in over 60 disasters, starting it with my own and my own disaster in 2006.

Scott Smith: 4:01

Well contaminated floodwaters, upstate New York, wiped out my life, my business and 100 employees, and we had to rebuild everything from scratch. That's when I realized everything that we're taught about water testing is flawed. For example I'll just say this as succinctly as possible you take a 250 milliliter, 500 milliliter glass jar and put it in the water. That only tells you what's in that jar of water, because water and contamination are in equilibrium. And I realized about how the gaming of the system falls not to tax. If you're the responsible party in one of these disasters, you can hire contractors that are not independent, even though the public is told they're independent, and then you can game the system. And whether it's East Palestine or any of these other 60 disasters, if I were one of these unscrupulous, unethical contractors being paid by a Norfolk Southern responsible party, I could game the system and come up with all what I call false not to tax by testing from a surface water where it's clear. My approach is whether it especially with water that its life exists in what's called the water column, above the bottom, beneath the surface. So you have to test where life is, meaning the sediment, the soil, not just the surface of the water and that's an issue in East Palestine, where the narrative is set by Norfolk Southern in the EPA is essentially operating as the public relations arm of Norfolk Southern.

Scott Smith: 5:56

The residents reached out to me because I'm known for going into these real world disasters. I was only going to go out twice and help the residents. Well, this I uncovered so much of this corruption and so much, so many problems with the testing. This has evolved into me going out there 22 trips and 26 rounds of testing and me spending, right now, right around $110,000 of my own money. But I'm a stubborn, principled person and I just at this point, I will not give up on exposing the corruption and getting truth and justice for the affected residents in the community.

Steve Taylor: 6:38

So let's remind people what happened in East Palestine that in February 3, 2023, there was a train over a mile long derailed and there were hundreds of thousands of gallons of chemicals, vinyl chloride and the like. There was a decision to burn that spill, a lot of people alleged, just because they wanted to open up the tracks sooner, and there was basically an open air incinerator. And we had Amanda Keiger from a citizens group on last year and she was talking about just the whole toxic soup that was put on fire, this whole toxic bonfire, the nosebleeds people were having, and she mentioned concerns with water, how the testing was done. Could you tell us what are you finding in East Palestine and how does it differ from what the agencies are saying?

Scott Smith: 7:40

Okay, great question. Before that, I had to keep it very simple for the audience. So, like I also say for the media, what goes on in East Palestine and Norfolk Southern and these disasters is equivalent to a murderer in court being allowed to get the so-called independent testing for the DNA match for the victim. Now do you really think if the murderer is in charge of the DNA testing, it's going to come back Implicating the murderer? No, it is that simple. This is the only. These events like Norfolk Southern. East Palestine is the only time in this country where the guilty party is allowed to develop the narrative and do all the testing. So, with that being said, what I realized is the the residents who were complaining. The EPA would not test indoors, would not test surfaces, and the EPA and Norfolk Southern Would not test residents who were reporting health symptoms close to the derailment site for soil. The EPA would not test the sediment and the creeks near ground zero. So I started testing all of the all of these Areas, the sediment I started in February of last year sulfur run in the creek and and getting Testing for a full slate of chemicals called semi volatile organic compounds and dioxins Also went to control areas. Well where the plume was not, where there was no impact. I was able to clearly show evidence from this testing that there was an increase in an impact with these chemicals after the derailment, after the controlled burn, and, additionally, residents were reporting, you know, burning lungs, you know blood in their urine, female health issues, menstrual cycle issues, a whole host of issues. So, instead of Biopsying someone's lung, the next best thing I started testing furnace filters to see what they May have been exposed to. The whole premise, steve, is to, instead of the unknown and these people being lied to, which really increases their panic and fear, if you can tell them what they might have Been exposed to so they can go to their doctors. That helps them. Versus, you know, because the government, the EPA, saying it's PTSD, it's psychosomatic, you are the reason you're sick, it's the chemicals in your house. Well, irrespective of my testing or anybody else's testing, I can tell you very simply None of these health symptoms were ubiquitous in the environment prior to the derailment and all you need is simple logic like that to know that something is going on.

Scott Smith: 10:52

And East Palestine is unique, unlike any other disaster I've been in and any other thing that's happened in North America, because the mixture of chemicals are unprecedented. Even with the BP oil spill, where I was, it was basically limited to oil and related oil compounds. Here you have oil and you have a whole host of dioxins from incomplete combustion. You have the PVC, polyvinyl chloride, resin cars, you have the vinyl chloride. You have a toxic concoction that is really unprecedented and there's something called synergistic toxicity, and the way I explain that is everyone knows about this is in a positive way.

Scott Smith: 11:39

You get a migraine. You take migraine pills over the counter with aspirin and caffeine Together, those combine synergistically to help get rid of your migraine. Well, if you take just aspirin or just caffeine, it won't. So that's an example of low dosages of chemicals mixing together to create a synergistic effect. Now, on the bad side of this, you take these benzene related compounds, where the EPA knowingly is deceiving people, citing a singular exposure to a singular chemical. Well, this involved all these benzene compounds, all these dioxins, all these other volatiles, all these chemicals mixed together. In a way, it is a fact that there are no standards for mixtures of chemicals. It is a fact that mixtures of chemicals have proven, at very low levels, when they combine, to create these synergistic effects and can create things and this is where I'm not a medical doctor but mitochondrial cell disruption and these strokes you're seeing.

Scott Smith: 12:44

People are having these strokes and mini strokes, and that was not at all present or ubiquitous in the community prior to this. Now I also want to make another very important point in that I reached out to Marilyn Lysner because News Nation did some stories and they flew out there and interviewed Marilyn, and then at one of my community presentations I decided to spend the money on my own and fly her out and have gotten to know her pretty well and at the beginning of this I thought well, times Beach, it's interesting to look at. But I was not thinking it was really comparable to East Palestine, because Times Beach was more TCDD and not all these other chemicals. Well, what changed was when I sat down with Marilyn at a community meeting and she starts talking about strokes, female issues, kidney issues, all these things that are happening in East Palestine, and it's just too eerily similar.

Steve Taylor: 14:02

So I know Marilyn is Well, I was kind of involved in Well I was. I was involved in the time speech cleanup myself and there were a lot of chemicals, volatile organic compounds, pcbs, bliss picked up from a lot of sites and it was just a chemical soup that he sprayed. But I did really pick up on what you said about fear and how people need to know the truth. One of the reasons I became an environmentalist or involved in environmental issues is that I was involved in two of the time speech sites and I believe and I believe have shown and Marilyn Leisner, I know, agrees that, and there's pretty substantial documentation that the government, both state and federal, knew of the contamination and let people sit in it for at least a decade.

Steve Taylor: 15:04

Not only that I remember when they came to a place I was living that had been sprayed with dioxin and they showed up in their protective gear, respirators, knocked on the door and they said we need to test your home inside here and I said For what? And they said, well, we can't tell you. And that was how it all started on that level of transparency we can't tell you. And what I saw from there was dissembling mendacity. And I worked very hard, along with others, to try to bring about transparency. So I want to jump to Leslie and say Leslie, what brought you into this story? Leslie, the government accountability project, what happened?

Lesley Pacey: 15:50

Well, thank you, steve, and thanks for having us and shining a light on this tragedy, because it is truly a tragedy. I have been investigating the BP oil spill and the playbook that allowed BP to get away with contaminating so many of our beaches along the Gulf Coast and the workers and residents for a number of years. And after the East Palestine train derailment happened and the subsequent burning, we were sort of just following it in the news and I kept seeing Scott's name come up and on his newscast. And here's this guy that's, you know, I hadn't heard of before, maybe should have, but he was out there doing tests and telling the residents what really was going on with their homes and their community and their health, and he was really like just a godsend to this community. So and then simultaneously we were seeing news reports that showed that certain scientists were very critical of the EPA's role in the response and saying things like well, why didn't they test for dioxin sooner? That's a no brainer, you should have done that right away. And it took a petition of multiple residents and a number of other things, you know reaching out to lawmakers and things of that nature to get the testing started there. And that was, I want to say March, late March or mid March. So right off, right off, there's red flags going off. You know why isn't the EPA looking at this and what's their resistance to this? And the scientists were criticizing it. Scott was there finding problems, finding dioxins, and so we reached out to Scott and you know we just started working together. The government accountability project has started an investigation into what really happened and usually what we do we did this with BP as well. We have a fourth report coming out in a couple of weeks on the BP OLSPEL. What we do is we take affidavits from residents, whistleblowers, we just investigate the situation as much as possible. We have scientists that we speak with and Scott was really at the center of all this because he already knew the residents. He's helped connect us with people and sort of get more engaged in the community, and what we found so far in their few months that we've been I've been back, I've been to East Palestine twice, going again for the anniversary, which is February 3rd, and what we found out is pretty horrific.

Lesley Pacey: 18:42

You know the health symptoms that began with this whole event are continuing. There are residents that have been temporarily relocated to housing outside the community. When they come home to their houses, they experienced the bloody noses again, the headaches, the dizziness, vomiting, you name it. And then there's residents that have had lots of exposure to the community, haven't gotten out of the community and they're experiencing some pretty freaky things, like, you know rapid tooth decay. Some people have reported that all their teeth have to be removed. There's something going on with that. People are having eye issues. They had a run on asthma inhalers because there was so much of an eat there for them. Brashes continue. People have lost all their hair. So Common Sense tells you, even if there wasn't a Scotsmith involved in all this, common Sense tells you EPA waited too long to do the testing.

Lesley Pacey: 19:48

Epa is using Norfolk Southern's contractors to, you know, continue the narrative that everything's safe and there's nothing to see here. And people are sick. People are truly sick and they're terrified to go back home. Or, if they're there, many of them want to leave but can't afford to leave. So in part, you know, we're hoping to help those residents by, you know, perhaps getting them a way to get out if they so desire. You know, maybe some government assistance, and we're also trying to shine a light on, you know, this is a playbook. This is how it works in America. You have a disaster, the responsible party and the EPA work hand in hand, at the top of that triangle of responsibility in these unified command structure, and they work together and they work with these contractors that are paid by the polluter, and so it's not a system set up really to protect public health, it's a system set up to protect these multi-billion dollar corporations.

Steve Taylor: 20:53

There's another playbook and that's like let's attack the residents. Scott, Leslie, what the reason I wanted to bring you on today is. I have been reading that Scott received a subpoena from Northfolk Southern. Could, Leslie, Scott, either of you tell me more about that?

Scott Smith: 21:17

So I was out in East Palestine for a community presentation that I gave on October 18th and update I was, you know, at the Cleveland airport. Flying back, when I live on Cape Cod, the sheriff Barnsville County Sheriff called me and said we're looking to serve you with a subpoena. So I called my personal attorney and said Brian, I'm not involved in any litigation. Now I'm told this is a third party subpoena. Could this really be Northfolk Southern? Could they really be this this stupid for poking me in the eye? They don't know what they're messing with. So, sure enough, got home, called the sheriff. He came to my driveway it was Norfolk Southern Supining me for all my communications to media, all my communications to residents, all my testing, and this is all private stuff.

Scott Smith: 22:16

So and again, I'm not a lawyer, but in my view, violet, you can see my response I sent to you, violating free speech, constitutional rights, designed to intimidate and threaten me and, it's funny, even the experts on my team and everything. Most people get all stressed out about subpoenas, but I've been you know the expression throwing bare rabbit in the briar patch, so they literally made my day. They clearly didn't do the background. They had a bunch. They probably had a bunch of arrogant people sitting on Zoom calls, not on the ground, thinking they could silence me.

Scott Smith: 22:51

So we worked with the government accountability project, thank God, and would helped us coming up with a response, and my lawyer sent it off to them and they threatened. You know, even before Thanksgiving they were threatening well, we're gonna file a motion to compel, you gotta comply, and all these things. And we basically told them, me and my attorney, stop threatening. You know where I live, obviously, file the motion to compel, we'll see you in court, we'll bring the media, we'll bring the cameras. I still have faith, for the most part, in the justice system and I don't see any judge, even if it's a multi-billion dollar company, making an exception to violate someone's constitutional rights.

Steve Taylor: 23:39

It seems to me, is that they're bringing the heat, or at least they're trying to you say you're fine with it. I guess what I think you're suggesting is maybe even use it to bring more attention to the Palestine tragedy, or maybe do discovery yourself. But is it accurate to say that you feel that they're attempting to intimidate you?

Scott Smith: 24:01

Oh, not just a.

Scott Smith: 24:02

Yeah.

Scott Smith: 24:03

They have attempted to intimidate me, but I can tell you from the media calls I get, there's a major smear and defamation campaign going on that's being coordinated and led by a guy named Mark Durna, with the EPA, along with others to be named, and the railroad itself accusing me of making up videos, accusing me of using dirty shovels and none of the data suggests that. And the reality of the situation. And I've offered to test side by side on record over and over again and to this day with the railroad, with the EPA, they refuse. I offered to meet with a resident with the railroad, as long as there was reciprocity, meaning they show me their detailed, raw reports. I show them all the details on mine. They only want a one-way street, so something. They have a lot to hide and we will see what happens with this. And they just, you know they pick the wrong guy to mess with on this. Because I'm stubborn, I don't give up and I will fight to the death against all this corruption, until it's exposed in front of millions and millions of people.

Steve Taylor: 25:21

So, along with your allegations that there's a smear campaign, you're saying you're confident that you'd be willing to put up your science alongside their science and take a close look at it.

Scott Smith: 25:33

That's correct. Then, and also the smear campaign. I don't say that lightly, because this is coming in from residents willing to do affidavits. It's coming in from media Things they are are saying about me that are, you know, just simply not true, which is fine. I welcome that and I welcome this discussion because I think they're used to mean even experts on my team. If they got subpoenaed, they was like Scott you stressed out, and I'm like I'm a unique individual Leslie will probably just say that's an understatement because this motivates me what they've done. I know this scares a lot of people. They're using their typical playbook on me, but now this has motivated me. I'm on the mission that much more to get the truth out.

Steve Taylor: 26:19

Well, Scott, you must be a very courageous person.

Scott Smith: 26:24

You get, whether it's East Palestine or other things. We have a right to free speech in in. You know all this talk of democracy, democracy. Well, we don't have our constitutional rights and free speech. We have no democracy, and I say that across all political aisles. Everyone needs to watch out, because anybody listening to this it could be you next. You could be the next Scott Smith. If you speak up in your community about anything, you could be targeted next by the government that is that is doing the bidding and the dirty work of the multi billion dollar corporations.

Steve Taylor: 26:56

It is a scary proposition and and there's even a term for it a slap suit. I mean, technically you're not, this isn't a suit, but you know I it seems to be a bit of in in in the playbook when, when residents, citizens are are dealing with a huge chemical disaster, that those who are trying to navigate it and help bring information into a community often find themselves entangled in in what we could characterize as a slap, something meant to intimidate and to that point of of free speech. I wanted to bring something to Leslie. Leslie, I have a press release by the government accountability project and it's entitled for you for EPA records on Facebook censorship of East Palestine posts filed. Yes, yes.

Steve Taylor: 27:49

Yes so tell us a little bit what's going on there. It seems like this is even a bit beyond the subpoena. I think maybe it happened afterwards, but but there were attempts to are. There were requests or demands that content related to contamination In in opinions expressed about it be taken down from Facebook.

Lesley Pacey: 28:11

There's some really strange things going on here, and I agree with you, first off, that this is the beginnings of what could be a slap suit against Scott, and I do feel like it's definitely aimed at intimidating him and if, honestly, if his results aren't, you know, carrying weight, then why would they need to do this? Now, as for the FOIA EPA FOIA on Facebook the reason that we started that was because Scott noticed that he was receiving messages from Facebook and Scott correct me if I'm wrong that he was in threat of his good standing, was being threatened because he had posted a Huffington post article on synergistic toxicity and he's Palestine and they, you know, flag that post, and they flag that post for one of the most outspoken residents there as well, and it looked like it was just being blocked. So we thought that was really weird, because this is a, you know, a news, the news news agency that is very, very well respected and it's an important article, and so why would they take that down? In addition to that, I've had reports from residents that Mark Dernaud had reached out to them. This is there again the Homeland Security arm of the EPA and Region 5 there. Who's over the East Palestine response. He's reached out to activists in the community and told them I suggest you take this post down on Facebook. It's not accurate.

Lesley Pacey: 29:53

We've also had really weird stuff going on that we haven't even mentioned yet, but since we filed the FOIA, I've had other residents reach out to me with similar situations. One of the residents was speaking at a hearing for any for on East Palestine on February 23rd. That post was on Facebook, received about, I want to say, 207,000 likes or views, and then that number has remained the same since March when it went crazy viral, and so in the also, I've had residents say well, you know, in the very beginning of all this, whenever we tried to share posts of the fire in the blaze that was going on all these chemicals, they were being taken down repeatedly by Facebook. So we're wanting to know, you know, anything on Facebook that EPA is involved with. We want to know what kind of contracts they have with Facebook. We want to know what kind of internal communications they've had and any posts that EPA officials have made on Facebook regarding East Palestine and I named a few residents in there. I probably should have put in more now that I'm hearing from some of these folks, but you know.

Lesley Pacey: 31:12

Additionally, outside of Facebook, some really weird stuff is going on to. Durna had reached out to one of the community groups that's been outspoken about health effects and said you know what you know? I've seen your newsletter. Let me get in and edit it, would you let me do that? So I mean just, it just feels like you know government interference and I'm not sure if it's coming from the railroad or some shareholders they have at Facebook that have mutual interest in the railroad or if it's strictly any of those EPA situation. But we can FOIA that. So that's what we did.

Steve Taylor: 31:50

Has there been a response to FOIA? Have you gotten any information or is this something a work in progress?

Lesley Pacey: 31:57

It's a work in progress. It's a brand new FOIA. I think we followed it last week, so it'll be a while. We have two other FOIAs out to the EPA on dioxins and acrolein and some other things, as well as any communications related to Scott Smith. We filed a lawsuit on the first one because they said they needed more time to do it. They also denied us a fee waiver at government accountability project. We have never in 45 years been denied a fee waiver for production of these FOIA documents. So and those FOIAs can get quite expensive.

Steve Taylor: 32:33

So, scott, what does your testing suggest is happening in the East Palestine, and how does it differ from what the EPA is saying?

Scott Smith: 32:43

Great question. First of all, I use the EPA is on record. They don't question my lab results. I use urethans, one of probably the best lab in the country for dioxins and other compounds, and what I'm doing differently from the EPA is I'm going to test residents that are close to the derailment site that are having health symptoms. The EPA has refused to test their soil outside their home. They've refused to test inside the home, air and surfaces, which doesn't make any sense. So I am finding in places like that, elevated dioxin levels above background. Now I won't get into all the technical information, but we're now up to 43 percent of our testing are way above background. Just to give you one example, without getting into too much of the weeds, six parts per trillion of dioxins is something that is called background in a community where there hasn't been to realmen or a major contamination. So 43 percent of our samples are way above that. So what we are detecting is so-called hot spots within East Palestine. Now there is some good news is this is so complicated, no one understands the movements and the wind patterns. But the good news is somewhere between 60 to 70 percent of my testing results are coming within background.

Scott Smith: 34:26

Now the EPA pulled the trigger on me with Mark Durna and the Smear campaign because if I were using dirty shovels and doing all these things they're accusing me of, which I believe they're accusing me of doing the things they're doing I've pointed out on other media. My results actually believe it or not probably limit the liability of the railroad, but at the same time, it does point to the real hot spots of the affected areas. So we're finding dioxins. We're also finding a suite of benzene-related compounds called semi-volatile organic compounds. In these areas we're seeing a fingerprint, just like a human has a fingerprint when you commit any crime or robbery or murder. These fingerprints from burning of PVC resin, cars smoldering is not like you're getting.

Scott Smith: 35:21

Here's another again is deception from the EPA. Oh, these dioxins were created from your barbecue grill in your backyard. There's a whole different fingerprint that comes from these chemical spills and disasters. So we're detecting these fingerprints too. That's why, steve, I've invited the EPA and the railroad to test side by side with me. Why wouldn't they do that? I'm very transparent. If I were doing something wrong or they tested side by side, I'd be the first one to correct it. They won't meet with me on behalf of the community to share in reciprocity all the details. They will not test side by side with me. Instead, they're doing all these things that may indeed violate my constitutional rights. You, basically the EPA, stalking me with my private address, undermining me. So it would be a lot easier. If Scott Smith is so wrong, go film it. I'd even say invite the media, do it side by side. Let's take side by side tests, send them to the same in different labs and see where we are. They will not do that.

Steve Taylor: 36:31

Wow, that's amazing. I mean it just sounds so familiar in a way. We tried so hard to get split sampling. It was so hard to get data. I mean there was, you know, state agencies had just gotten rid of data after a certain period of time. It was so hard to get conjurer specific data. We never got some conjurer specific data, which is the particular fingerprint you're talking about. I believe Absolutely. Yeah, this is the conjurer specific, the toxic equivalency. I mean you can't just say, oh, there's just dioxin, you got all these other things. There's amplifying effects. It just amazes me that they won't do something side by side with you. It sounds like you're very confident in your science. You work with a team of experts, is that so, scott?

Scott Smith: 37:16

I've had PhDs, toxicologists, reach out to me and volunteer around me, so I've spent a lot of money. I'm kind of the front man out there in the public, but the science team, they're there. They did a society of environmental toxicology and chemistry. We did a poster presentation. That's all in the public. I think you've seen that, and the team has all reached out to me. They have over 150 years of experience in dioxins and other chemicals. One gentleman on the team was the number two guy at the Ohio EPA and one of the other guys involved, bruce Vigon, has a tremendous background in statistics too and they look at all this stuff. So we're assembling data and we're doing everything by the book. We're testing where the EPA and the railroad refused to test. They would get the same results we're getting.

Steve Taylor: 38:07

I applaud you for your efforts to shine a light on what's happening in East Palestine. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that either of you would like to address?

Lesley Pacey: 38:19

One thing I also want to mention, very thankful for Scott and his team, but also thankful for the community. I think EPA in the North, north or Southern vastly underestimated the community of East Palestine. This is a smart group of people. They've got a fighting spirit, they're organized and there's a very good number of people within the community that are keeping notes on everything and they're making things happen. So I think I want to make that point. We do have quite a number of witnesses that are telling us some really amazing things that you wouldn't hear from the EPA or any of the contractors would be opposite pretty much of what you're hearing. But we can always take more statements from residents, first responders. We would love to have some EPA whistleblowers. We would love to have more scientists and maybe even some Norfolk Southern contractors that have seen things that they're not comfortable with. We can keep those people anonymous to protect their jobs, but we really want to get out the truth and we will get out the truth here.

Scott Smith: 39:35

I think this is a turning point for the entire country and, with what I said before and I think that the people coming together on this are unprecedented to get the truth out and obviously I'm very appreciative and grateful for Leslie and the government accountability project I couldn't continue to do this and if it weren't for the government accountability project and Leslie, maybe that subpoena would have had an effect on me.

Steve Taylor: 40:01

Leslie Scott. Thank you for joining us on Breaking Green.

Lesley Pacey: 40:05

Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Steve Taylor: 40:08

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