Breaking Green

Radioactive Fire with Just Moms STL's Dawn Chapman

• Global Justice Ecology Project / Host Steve Taylor • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Radioactive waste from the building of the first atomic bomb sits in a landfill with a below ground fire. Dawn Chapman who was featured in HBO's Atomic Homefront  tells Breaking Green how the EPA is again delaying removal seven years after agreeing to a new cleanup plan pressured by the community.

Dawn and other activists from the region promise more pressure as they plan a trip to EPA headquarters as time runs out for a community they say is besieged with illness and childhood cancers.

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Steve Taylor  
Welcome to breaking green, a podcast by global justice ecology project. On breaking green, we will talk with activists and experts to examine the intertwined issues of social, ecological and economic injustice. We will also explore some of the more outrageous proposals to address climate and environmental crises that are falsely being sold as green. I am your host, Steve Taylor, in a suburb of St. Louis, Missouri, an underground fire in a landfill contaminated with radioactive material continues to threaten the local community, as well as 74,000 people within a four mile radius. The highly radioactive material is from the refining of uranium for the world war two atomic bombs built during the ultra secret Manhattan Project. The waste has been in the landfill for nearly 50 years while the Department of Energy, the EPA and all other relevant agencies have failed to take action to protect citizens. In this episode of Breaking green, we will talk with Dawn Chapman of Moms STL about how she learned her family and neighbors have been exposed radiation from the site after being allowed to move next to it without warning. As detailed in an HBO documentary Atomic Homefront, Chapman forced the EPA to propose a cleanup in 2013. Now years later, plans to clean up the site have  stalled. Chapman and other activists are renewing their fight for environmental justice. Dawn Chapman, welcome to breaking green.

Dawn Chapman  
Thanks, Steve.

Steve Taylor  
So Dawn let me ask you first, before we get into the specifics, I like to ask my guests what brought you to the environmental movement? Were you an environmentalist always, or what brought you to the movement?

Dawn Chapman  
I woke up one day and there was a dangerous Superfund site practically in my backyard threatening my kids. You know, my, my involvement came out of necessity, I didn't have a choice.

Steve Taylor  
Well, let's talk about that a bit. I think what's really surprising or shocking about your story, is that you are living next to basically what could simply be described as a radioactive landfill fire. And that waste has been there for about 50 years coming up on 50 years. And it's from the atomic bomb project. And actually, there was an HBO special I don't remember when, but some years ago, about your efforts. But how did you find that out? I mean, how did you, Dawn Chapman find out that you're living next to a radiation or radioactive landfill fire.

Dawn Chapman  
So I could smell I woke out, you know, our neighborhood had been experiencing this very scary odor, very chemical. Smoky, but there was like a little bit of a petroleum smell to it. I mean, it was very heavy. And it would, it would make our eyes water, it would make our nose bleed. Everybody had called and nobody had gotten a great answer. And so that morning, it was my turn to be the neighborhood mom that made the phone call. And I just so happened to get somebody from the Department of Natural Resources. I was transferred to him by my local municipality. And this really great guy, Joe, I still remember his name. And he I didn't think he called me back. And he did. And we spent about two hours on the phone. And I, I can't even describe like, the shock. I mean, every word out of his mouth was so detailed about what was going on at the site and the fire and the radioactivity and the Manhattan Project and the roll. And at the end of two hours, he said, Do you have any questions for me? And I said, Yeah, I said, why was I allowed to move into this house next to this site? Why didn't why didn't somebody tell me about this? I mean, isn't there's some sort of a law and and he was very remorseful and he said, you know, no, there's actually not. And I'm very, very sorry that you're having to find out about this this way.

Steve Taylor  
This waste has been there for 50 years, and what I've read and learned is that it it's from the Manhattan Project, how is it that this waste this radioactive waste, and I believe it's a radiation or material that was highly radioactive from the Congo region, used specifically for the atomic bomb project? It was refined in in St. Louis, how is it that that isn't something that everyone in St. Louis knew our knows about? 

Dawn Chapman  
It's still not even after an HBO film highlighted it, I still run into people every day, that message me and say, I just saw this article and what is this? And it's like, okay, you know, you go back through the story, the role St. Louis played in World War Two, and people are just dumbfounded. It isn't something that we talk about in St. Louis. And I think, quite frankly, I think it's something that we're the city and the government are very ashamed of.

Steve Taylor  
So in 2013, you you responded, or you called about odors, you know, and you're worried about maybe chemicals or just the inconvenience of smelling all this off gassing from from the landfill. And then you were informed. If I'm understanding you that there was radiation there. When did the fire the subterranean thermal event become realized or known by residents?

Dawn Chapman  
It was just a few months before then that before I was on the phone with this gentleman that it was realized, and even then, there was a new story about it, but I didn't hear the news story, you know, so So my area had no clue. And that fire started in 2010. And I became aware of the issue in 2013, middle middle of January. So I mean, that's perspective in and so by the time the public became aware, and public pressure built up around it, because we were knocking on neighbors doors, you know, my friend, Karen and I, we were just telling everybody we could that we knew on Facebook, and everybody was kind of like us, they're like, know what? That's the common reaction, I think that even to this day, we get. You just don't think that your Government or the Environmental Protection Agency is going to let you live next to a site where there is a significant risk to you and your family without notifying you.

Steve Taylor  
As in your opinion, Dawn in in, has there been health consequences to the community? locally? I mean, you're in Bridgeton. Is that correct? Bridgeton?

Dawn Chapman  
Yeah, I'm right on the border of Maryland Heights. So right there.

Steve Taylor  
Maryland Heights Bridgeton region? Has there been negative health consequences from this smoldering  radiation? And I, and I think there's also a creek in the region, Coldwater Creek. So there's radioactive material kind of flowing through the creek, or there's a contaminated Creek in the region, with this radioactive fire. Would you be willing to talk a little bit about whether or not residents or you in particular feel like there's been health consequences for this?

Dawn Chapman  
Without a doubt, without a doubt, you know, our I did not grow up in this area. I grew up in an area south and Fenton and so you know, when I graduated in 1998, I can look back at my class. I can look on my, you know, on my reunion pages and whatnot, and see how everybody's doing. And then when I look at the people in this community, that graduated the same year, because everybody's got kind of a memorial page for people we've, you know, they've lost and whatnot. It's astounding. And, and I see it, you know, having raised my kids in this community now and lived here long enough, everybody's got multiple autoimmune illnesses. Right now, in this zip code that I live in 63043, there's almost a 300% increase in childhood brain cancers. And that was a survey that the State Department of Health and Senior Services did. So that's a verified statistic. And of course, for us, when that statistic came out, that came out in like, 2015 2016, we thought, okay, wow, oh my god. So now everybody's gonna come in, right and really take care of the situation because we've got a very, no, they don't. The government can just drop a percent like that on top of you as a community and say, okay, we've notified you by. You know, it the way you think things should work, is just not the way they work.

Steve Taylor  
Wow. So in 2013, you became aware of this radiation fire. And then you you formed or helped form you co founded  just mom's STL or just mom, St. Louis. Um, then I believe your work was a large part of the reason that in 2018, the EPA finally did to step up and say we're going to remediate. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Dawn Chapman  
You can never stop fighting with this agency, you just can, you know, you cannot take a win, and then go on vacation and say, Okay, now I can take a breath. It's just fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, because now we have to get them to do, um, they have done additional testing and found out that it's worse than they thought. And now we have to get them to do to design the cleanup and then implement the cleanup. I mean, it's, it's never ending, it feels like.

Steve Taylor  
We're coming up on 50 years of what you have called in various media reports, low level exposure to this radioactive material. So it was not until 2018 that the EPA said, Okay, we're going to do a clean up. So are you telling me that it took a lot of pressure, even in 2013 to 2018, for the EPA to take action, even though you and they knew that this radiation was there? 

Dawn Chapman  
Oh absoIutlely, I mean, and that's that you just hit the nail right on the head right there, you know, something so obvious, something that even they recognize this was a National, they're the ones that said this was a national priority site. They said, This is the worst of the worst Superfund sites in the nation. They gave it that title, back in the 1990s. And here I am in 2013. And they're looking at me like I have two heads when I say, hey, guys, I'm really concerned about my family here. You know, that? Well, you know, it's it really was gaslighting. And it's, it was the most bizarre thing. And you can see it in Atomic Homefront that HBO film, you can watch these meetings where they stand up there, the EPA, and these agencies and they look at you, like you're crazy for being scared at this material, you know that they very much. But then in the next breath, they're talking about how dangerous it is, and how many people in the agency they have devoted to cleaning it up and coming to a solution. And for me, what it felt like is they were more concerned with us raising awareness and making noise and trying to keep the public calm than they were and keeping us safe.

Steve Taylor  
During the filming of atomic Homefront, or soon thereafter, I believe one of one of the members of mom's STL died of cancer?

Dawn Chapman  
Yeah, I don't. She was actually, she lived out by Coldwater Creek. And so I mean, we Yeah, she's an honorary just Moms STL girl for sure. But she wasn't very heavily involved in in Just Moms because she was so sick. And you can see her battle in the film, along with the battle of another little boy that was sick and ended up dying. And, you know, we just buried this week, we just buried another community member, you know, it's that that's the real crap of it, I think is that while while we're fighting, and what kind of I think sets us apart from the other activists that kind of wake up one day and are passionate about these issues, which we certainly need more of. We're sick, so we're having to fight these issues, while our health is kind of going down. Does that make sense? It's, we're not at our physical best. And I think the agencies know that. And I think that's why when you see the clip from the film, it really strikes you because it's like, why are you making these people work so hard to to be kept safe, and you're draining them and you're making them do all this. And you know, they've already been exposed. And you know, they're already sick. I mean, you're you're, you're literally adding on to their plate here.

Steve Taylor  
This is your host, Steve Taylor. And we will be back right after this.

Theresa Church  
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Steve Taylor  
Welcome back to breaking green. So there's 75,000 people within a four mile radius of this radioactive fire this subterranean thermal event, as they like to call it. And I believe there have been hits of particulate radiation or particles that were carrying radiation on monitors around there. So this is not just an event that that affects Bridgeton, or Maryland Heights or the Moms this, this will be regional. And what is really shocking to learn is that there have been communications from I believe, the fire department or other local government agencies about how to shelter in place when and if that fire actually hits some high concentrations of radiation that's left in that landfill.

Dawn Chapman  
It's, it is the, it is the most shocking thing to open up your kids backpack, and to find a note in their, from their superintendent, talking about how should the fire meet the waste and there'll be an emergency, how they will keep your child and shelter in place. And then in the same sentence, ask you this may mean overnight, we're not sure for how long so if you have extra medication that your children take at night, please make sure that you have it on hand. And it's I mean, you're just sitting there, I can feel it now. I mean, just going, what the hell is this life? Like?  And I know, I mean, look, we're not a community that can afford to buy an extra dose of medication without being covered under insurance. I mean, that's, that's not the type of people that live in this. So yeah, we're all panicking. And, you know, I'm like, do I, what do you say to your kids? I mean, my kids were in grade school. I mean, am I like, stay together? You know, there are conversations that we all had to have with our children as a result of that, that I never in my life thought...

Steve Taylor  
It's very strange that they talk about sheltering in place, when you have this fire in this radiation, you know, from the testing. I mean, it's there's a fair amount of it. I mean, how to suggest that would be a day a week or a month of sheltering in place just doesn't seem realistic.

Dawn Chapman  
Well, they don't say where they're going to take them either.

Steve Taylor  
Right, it just seems to be lip service towards some sort of safety drama, you know, is is the way it hits me is like, we're just sort of engaging in some fantasy that there is a plan. Because there's 75,000 people within a four mile radius. I mean, they're, Dawn, when you told me when we I talked to you before this show, that there were actually hits or monitors air monitors now, of radioactive particles. I mean, the fact that this is not national news that this is not on the news every night is is just amazing.

Dawn Chapman  
We lived. And you could see this in atomic Homefront, too. And there's a scene it's there's no video of it. But you can hear the audio where I confront the site engineer, about those particles leaving this site because yeah, those monitors were receiving hits, what they told us. And so we would say, you know, are we in danger right now today? And the answer was? No. Well, then we learned that there were small levels of particulates, leaving the site, of course, there's radioactive waste sitting on the surface every time the wind blows. So when we confronted him, he says, well, yeah, there's particulates leaving, but there's none at like, high enough concentrations to warrant action. And I'm like, okay, just hear me. What does 50 years of that level of small particles leaving the site look like for this community? In other words, I'm not worried about that huge gulp of air that I take outside, that I'm then going to start showing signs of radiation sickness in two days. What I'm worried about is what does my life look like living here for 15 years with a little bit at a time, especially as you mentioned, the community that lives right, on practically the subdivision on top of this site, and they can't answer that. And, again, that's gaslighting. You're okay, calm down. Don't worry. Oh, no, but wait, yeah, we got a couple of hits.

Steve Taylor  
So that's interesting. You talk about the monitoring and and it's it's unclear as to how robust that really is an ongoing basis. I mean, they known about this for 50 years. So There have been at least or there has been at least one individual who tested their home own home for radiation. And there was a disturbing result. Could you tell us about that?

Dawn Chapman  
Well, yeah, back to the monitors, you know, a little bit of this stuff leaving every time the wind blows, because it said on the surface over decades is going to accumulate right next door in the homes that are less than a half a mile away. It just is, this happens at other sites across the nation, this, it's gonna behave the way it behaves everywhere else, West Lake's, not anything special. And so yeah, I believe it got into her home, because little bit at a time, through open windows through walking in through whatnot. And then what it did is the people that were looking for the radiation in her home, she had hired somebody to come in and test. Were familiar with finding it. In other words, they had worked at other sites, and they knew that think of your own house, where does dust accumulate, that's where you're going to check. You're not going to go in and go swipe, somebodies coffee table. That that's not where you're likely to find it, you're going to go behind the fridge, you're going to go and find a little nook that they don't check often. You know, maybe a vacuum bag, that sort of thing where you're going to find it, and that's what they did. So I mean, we weren't surprised.

Steve Taylor  
What did they find?

Dawn Chapman  
I think they found a hit of thorium 230. That was 1000 pico Curies per gram, it was a really, really high hit. And again, thorium 230. Thorium 230 is is what we have sitting on the surface of Westlake, one of the largest deposits of it in the world, thanks to the illegal dumping. So it no surprise to anybody in this in this community, how it got there.

Steve Taylor  
And there were atomic workers, I believe, who had to sue for health compensation, who actually produced that for Mallinckrodt years ago. So there's a history of oh, I don't know how you would characterize it mishandling? Or are sort of, well, let's say lack of proper engagement or concern about workers and now community. So there is a history with the atomic workers with this as well.

Dawn Chapman  
Oh, absolutely. With the Department of Energy, we have a we have documents that detail, moving this waste from downtown because you described it earlier, West Lake is kind of the final resting place, right where it's been for 50 years, but it was moved around the community illegally dumped, you know, and held out in the open in different locations. For you know, for a long time within the 50s 60s and early 70s. We have a document that talks about them taking this and a dump truck and moving it from downtown up to where the airport is spilling it on on Lindbergh Boulevard and freaking out saying what do we do, we can't suit up and clean this up, or they're gonna know that there's, this is dangerous. And so they were told, we'll just sweep it off into the ditch, just get brooms out and sweep it right into the ditch. That's in the middle of a community. Now,

Steve Taylor  
It seems like a secret history in the sense that this was the Manhattan Project. I mean, you go you go to New Mexico, and they have monuments and everything about anything where they, you know, they did all this testing. There's these monuments. And there's there's discussions. I n St. Louis, where the weapons grade, I guess it was uranium was produced, there almost seems to be a secret history. Am I Is that a proper characterization? Or am I...

Dawn Chapman  
You're right on it in I think we pay the price for that, you know, when people say, Well, why is so was so, so much more worse off? It's because like, I just talked about that spill, that was still classified when that spill happened. And so, no, they they they chose in the interest of national security, the health and well being of our nation over the health of the citizens in St. Louis. That was a choice that was made. And we're still paying that price. You know, and yeah,

Steve Taylor  
So one of the reasons we wanted you on the show, Dawn was, you know, you had this this work, and in 2018, you know, a long time after people were initially exposed. I mean, it was a long time. And then, in 2018, there was this, you know, a lot of people saw it as a victory and movement towards an actual cleanup. There was a new record of decision by the EPA, and then we're going to remove 70% I mean, people a lot of people say why not? 100% Right. So they're going to remove 70% and now it's 2022 in, in some media reports, you have been saying that they're becoming less clear about how they are going to be going forward. So I have two questions for you. One, what is happening with the EPA and the ledge cleanup? And then there's also reports that you may be traveling in the very near future, to their headquarters in Kansas demanding some answers.

Steve Taylor  
We're helping to this Wednesday, we are driving in the middle of the snow, which is about a four hour drive each way. But we're doing it in one trip. And yeah, we're going in hot, I want answers. I want to know when my kids are going to be kept safe. I want to know, when they are going to act with their legal authority and come in here and get the risk out of this community, finally, after, as you said, almost 50 year. It's time. And and I want to know what the Department of Energy is doing. I want to know where they are in this process. Are we stuck with EPA? Or is this we need to go to DC in front of the Secretary of the Department of Energy? And, you know, because we'll go where we need to go. That's where it is, well, we will go where we need to go to keep our kids safe. Going on. Yeah, I thought that 2018 was the victory. And people had kind of said, well, you know, sometimes when you get to clean up, if you're not watching closely, you know, they'll walk it back, they'll do different things. And I thought, Well, this one's pretty much out there. And it's very public. And it's been in the news. But it didn't take long for me to start seeing signs that that could be the case. So we're not about to let up. We can't

Steve Taylor  
Yeah. Good to hear dawn. I mean, I you know, St. Louis, that that there was time speech, there was the Wagner electric there's just it's one of those cities, those one of those rust bowls, cities that just has so much contamination, and there's a history of agency inertia there. So one of the maddening things about this dawn that you were telling me is that there's already money for the cleanup, that there's an anticipated bill of $200 million for cleanup seems like you know, a whole heck of a lot. But then again, it would have been a lot cheaper to do it 50 years ago, right. But there's $200 million price tag with this. But there's already money available for the cleanup. So two questions there. Is that true? It tell us about that? And then why the hesitancy? Are they concerned about more about legal liability or signaling liability than then and protecting their secrets?

Dawn Chapman  
So you're correct, the price tag for Westlake is about $200 million. And right now, there is an account by the Department of Energy with over $500 million in it. And they have had that account since 2006. So that count that money that $500 million has gained interest. So the money's there, the legal document requiring them to clean up is there. Where's the movement? And you say that with inertia? Where's the inertia? That's a great way to describe it. And that's exactly what we're hoping to find out. Because that money is not earmarked for anything else but the cleanup of Westlake. They'll have leftover money that they can do, the Department of Energy can do whatever they want with after they clean up our site. So you know, there, it shouldn't be stuck. It shouldn't be this hard. And, you know, we're going to find out why it is. And one of the my fears. You know, we're just being very honest here. My fear is that just like mentioning that spill with Coldwater Creek and that waste, the faster they clean up Westlake it, then that just means I think that they needed to do it a long time ago. And they're just now getting around. I think they get stuck in the embarrassment that this agency has for the way it treated this entire region. I think we can't. I mean, I don't think the citizens necessarily but I think the agency just cannot get past their embarrassment for the top secrecy and then not doing what they should have done. You know, and, unfortunately, and I think, you know, this when you look at the history of St. Louis and the army, and different ways they and things they did in St. Louis, you know, this is not the only environmental thing that they did that puts citizens at risk. And they left citizens in the dark, unaware of.

Steve Taylor  
Yeah, there there is a long, military history in St. Louis McDonnell Douglas and many other companies. Well, I mean, you had Mallinckrodt with the Manhattan Project, but it goes on and on. And there's Weldon springs. It's an interesting, it's an interesting city. Dawn, why are not people being evacuated? Why are not why is there not a buyout?

Dawn Chapman  
Their answer that the Environmental Protection Agency says that there, they will not consider a buyout if they have a way of cleaning this site and preventing it from happening. And our response is, okay, well, then why is it four years later, and you're still doing nothing, maybe pick one or the other? Maybe, maybe if you can't get this decision up and going, then you use that $500 million, the Department of Energy has and you start buying people out. So that's actually going to be the conversation that we have on Wednesday, you know, if you do one or the other, and you get it going quickly.

Steve Taylor  
Buyouts though that would create maybe panic in the region. I mean, if you buy out people who live right next door, you know, what about the people, you know, four miles downwind from a radiation fire? I mean, do you think that is a factor that they really can't take meaningful action, or they're concerned about taking meaningful action? Because it will signal a larger problem?

Dawn Chapman  
I think, I think that's exactly one reason. And the other reason is along Coldwater Creek, as you mentioned earlier, where this radioactive waste also contaminated it when it sat next to it for a while. They're finding radioactive waste in people's backyards. And the Department of Energy is cleaning that up. So I think that the scope of who they'd have to buy out, like you said, where would they draw that line? I don't, I don't think you'll find a clean place to draw that line. And I think that's the fear between what happened at downtown Mallinckrodt the route it took all the way up by the airport, all throughout the airport, North County sites, and now over here at our site and our community. I think you're looking at a regional regional exposure within the past, you know, 60 years, and I don't think they know what to do with that. I think it's so massive, that, you know, they, they just in their mind, they can't fathom buying up the entire St. Louis region. And I do get it. But you know, the secrecy around it, it's got to stop, you know, the local hospitals are starting to wake up. We've got doctors messaging us now.

Steve Taylor  
Well, that's interesting. Could you tell us a little bit about that doctors messaging you.

Dawn Chapman  
So you know, I think that after years and years and years of advocacy, and HBO film and other private documentaries that others have done, I think that the medical community in St. Louis is starting to put two and two together and see specific zip codes that have what we would call rare cancers, such as appendix cancers, multiple myeloma, children with glioblastoma, brain tumors, things like that, that you wouldn't find at alarming rates. And I think they're starting to reach out and ask for documents, and what do we know about it, and they're talking amongst themselves.

Steve Taylor  
It's a tragic, tragic story. It's also it's hard to understand how this waste has been there for decades. And it's hard to understand why you now again, are traveling to Kansas, going in hot, as you say, trying to to get answers and again, demand action. 

Dawn Chapman  
I just would like to say, you know, the people in my community that are fighting this are already sick. And it's a special, I want to recognize them, because for them, they're given it 120. And they really only have 70% to give and the truth is, it's too late for them. You know it, it is too late for them. It's too late for me or my kids. But it's not too late for somebody else's. And that's a really takes a lot of perspective, and yet our community still steps up. Well, you have people in between chemo treatments that are writing members of Congress emails, and you know, I mean, they should be knitting, right? They should be healing they should be. But they don't have that luxury. You know, because if not, then then maybe a family or maybe member or maybe somebody else and that's I don't think these agencies realize the toll the emotional toll that that takes on because we talk about physical harm. What about emotional harm? You know, you can argue there's financial harm, right with home prices and whatnot. But let's talk emotional and mental health, which is often left off the table. So I think the cumulative health impacts on my community and others. And I, what I don't like, and I've seen this in talking with like the former mayor of Times Beach and whatnot, is I do think that there are people within these agencies that know that, and that try and use that to their benefit. You know, I think that for instance, I mean, we're going to happen a cargo for hours to Lenexa, Kansas. And I think there might be people that think, oh, there'll be exhausted when they get here. And it's like, No, we're just going to be pumped. You know? No. And I think that we'll be a little tired, but we'll be we'll be ready. You know, we and I think to downplay that, in a community when you're when you work for one of these agencies is wrong. And I hope that that's something that, that they can very, I know, they can very easily step up and change that there needs to be some more empathy, some more empathy.

Steve Taylor  
Well, Dawn, thank you for the interview. It's it's I think, the point of the HBO documentary that we've mentioned several times is that you have no one's going to come in and rescue you. Right. I mean, it's sort of like the global warming situation where we just keep talking about it and pushing it off into the future. No, these agencies aren't going to say, Hey, I think there might be a problem there. We ought to go take care of Dawn Chapman's family are the people in Maryland Heights Are you mentioned Times Beach, and that was a another huge environmental disaster in the St. Louis region where dioxin was sprayed, actually in 27 different sites. Which brings to mind you did work a little bit with Lois Gibbs, I believe aren't on this issue leading up to some of the results in 2018. So just one more question on what was what was it like working with Lois Gibbs, from Love Canal? Did let me remind people that Lois Gibbs was the activists who, who actually kind of held the EPA hostage, some representatives hostage in her home until they they kind of like bucked up and did a buyout of Love Canal. So what was it like working with Lois Gibbs?

Dawn Chapman  
And like, it was both amazing and hard, you know, Lois. She lived it, like you just said, and, you know, when you when you work with Lois, when she's coming in, it's more of a training. You know, it's more of a perspective that she brings and kind of teaching you how to be an advocate. And it's, it's hard work, you know, it's emotionally hard work, because she doesn't hold back. She really I think more than anybody I know, has a perspective for how change really happens. You know, and you kind of alluded to that a little earlier, you know, no, you think a letter from a bipartisan congressional delegation would jumpstart an agency and it doesn't. I mean, they barely bat an eyelash, you know, and, and you are, you're excited, you've got this, it's going in, and you're like, here we go. This is gonna, you know, no change happens because of public pressure because of these kinds of interviews. Because they become ashamed. You know, it's not because you're telling them anything they don't already know. Or a member of Congress is scrutinizing them. It's because enough people are looking at them and they're embarrassed and you know, then there's suddenly movement.

Steve Taylor  
Thank you for joining breaking green, please keep us apprised of what happens. I mean, there has to be. There has to be action. There. There must and thank you for for being an activist and holding their feet to the fire Dawn Chapman. 

Dawn Chapman  
Thank you, Steve. 

Steve Taylor  
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai