No Planet B: Why Mars is More Myth than Mission with Dennis Meredith

We explore the myths and realities of space colonization and assess whether humans can survive long-term deep space travel. In this episode, author Dennis Meredith explains why we might need to rethink our ambitions and focus on protecting our planet instead.

• Dissecting the notion of humanity becoming a multi-planet species 
• Highlighting the physical impacts of space travel on human health 
• Exploring toxic lunar and Martian dust hazards 
• Discussing the economic feasibility of Mars colonization 
• Urging prioritization of environmental efforts on Earth over space exploration 
• Advocating for a deeper understanding of Earth's ecosystems 

Earthbound is scheduled to be released March 31st. Learn more about Dennis Meredith's book at earthboundthebook.com. 

Dennis Meredith has worked as a science communicator at leading research universities, including MIT, Caltech, Cornell, Duke and the University
of Wisconsin. He is author of the nonfiction books Explaining Research:
How to Reach Key Audiences to Advance Your Work; The Climate Pandemic:
How Climate Disruption Threatens Human Survival; and Earthbound: The
Obstacles to Human Space Exploration and the Promise of Artificial
Intelligence. 

He also writes science thrillers, and his latest
environmentally themed novels are the award-winning Mythicals and Attack
of the Food Zombies.

Breaking Green is made possible by tax deductible donations from people like you. Please help us lift up the voices of those working to protect forests, defend human rights and expose false solutions.  

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Breaking Green
• 0:27 Introduction to Episode
• 2:50 Inspiration for Book
• 5:27 Radiation in Deep Space
• 9:27 Brain Damage
• 11:09 Space Blindness
• 12:51 Long-Term Weightlessness
• 16:03 Poisonness Soils
• 18:42 Distance and Time
• 22:11 Alarms and Mental Degredation
• 24:34 Myth of Mars Colonization
• 25:48 No Planet B
• 27:20 Space Boosterism
• 28:26 Planetary Humility
• 28:54 Fermi Paradox
• 30:07 Robotic Alternatives
• 32:33 Keep AI on other Planets
• 35:49 Techno Bros
• 37:05 Outro

Transcript

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The notion of humanity

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reaching the stars in a conquest of space is a modern mythology.

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It is part of our collective imagination and is infused

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in our culture and politics.

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Increasingly, billionaire technologists insist that in order for our species

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to survive, we must inhabit alien worlds such as Mars.

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But is there really an alternative planet for humanity?

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Or are we deluding ourselves with dreams of alternative worlds

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for humankind that are based on faulty assumptions?

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In this episode of Breaking Green,

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we'll talk with Dennis Meredith, author of the new book Earthbound.

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Meredith argues that current science indicates that humans

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are fundamentally unable to survive long-term deep space exploration,

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and that its promoters are ignoring research that clearly shows

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humans are an earthbound species, despite visions of reaching the stars.

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He is author of numerous books,

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including How to Reach Key Audiences to Advance Your Work,

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The Climate Pandemic: How Climate Disruption Threatens Human Survival,

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and Earthbound: The Obstacles to Human Space

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Exploration and the Promise of Artificial Intelligence.

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Meredith holds

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a Bachelor's of science degree in chemistry from the University of Texas

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and a master's of science in biochemistry

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and science writing from the University of Wisconsin.

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Dennis Meredith has worked as a science communicator

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at leading research universities including MIT, Caltech,

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Cornell, Duke, and the University of Wisconsin.

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Dennis Meredith welcome to Breaking Green.

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Thanks so much for having me, Steve.

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It's a pleasure to be here with you.

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It's a pleasure to have you.

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I've read your most recent book, earthbound, and I will tell you it

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addresses some topics I have been thinking about for some years.

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For many decades, there's been this mythology, this hope,

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this narrative that humankind

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is going to to go to other planets and maybe other stellar systems

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become a multiple planet species.

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But you take a  position

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in your book that there are hurdles that make that very unlikely,

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if not impossible.

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So what brought you, Dennis Meredith,

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to write such a contrarian book?

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Well, first of all, I am a big space buff.

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I  watched when I was at Caltech, I watched the Voyager flybys.

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I've seen the space shuttle land.

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I've gone to the, NASA,

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visitor's centers, and I've

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watched the video of happy astronauts in space.

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And, that was what I brought to to the book.

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But then I decided, let's let's just take a look at the science.

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Let's take a look at what the research really says

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about what, whether there are obstacles,

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to humans, going into deep space.

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 I should contrast deep space with, orbital space around the Earth.

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That's a protected harbor.

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It's protected from from radiation,

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because of the, the Earth's magnetosphere.

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And it's protected from, isolation because astronauts can get back home

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pretty quickly. So.

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Okay, I want to know what was happened in deep space.

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Well, deep space is, impossible for for people to survive.

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The radiation is far more intense.

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Gravity, weightlessness.

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You have to, deal with weightlessness for for decades.

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I mean, for many years, if you're in, if you're going on a long mission,

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there's there's toxic, chemicals in the spacecraft.

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You can't take a bath.

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You're psychologically isolated.

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And so my conclusion, which surprised me, frankly, once I went into the

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the literature, was it was that every organ in the human body

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is damaged by being in deep space

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from weightlessness and radiation and toxic chemicals.

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So, that was the conclusion I came to.

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Then I went looked at what NASA has been saying,

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and they sort of glossed this all over.

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As I said, they're these really, merry astronauts

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in the space station that are very happy and so forth.

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But, it's that's not the truth.

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And so I felt like

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the book really had to tell the truth from a scientific point of view.

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Could you give us a little, breakdown

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of some of the science institutions you've worked for in the past?

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Well, I've worked for, Caltech, MIT,

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Cornell,

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Duke and University of Wisconsin as a research communicator.

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And in many of those places, I was involved in the space program.

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Reporting on it and writing about it.

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You mentioned the Earth's magnetosphere.

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You know, the Van Allen belts.

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It takes radiation from the sun and,

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cosmic radiation and shields the Earth.

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And that's generated by a liquid

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metal iron core in the Earth.

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There is no such core in Mars.

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There is no such shielding,

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from radiation on the surface of Mars and then getting there.

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So I really think we should start off by talking

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about the elephant in the room and what no one really ever talks about.

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And if they do, they say, oh, well, this this problem will be solved.

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Let's let's talk about radiation.

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The types that astronauts can experience and and what that really means,

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for a human being, to be exposed to, not only just

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solar radiation, but cosmic radiation if they're in deep space.

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But you're absolutely right.

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NASA has not talked about,

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not made very public these kinds of risks, but privately.

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And if you delve into the, NASA's, websites,

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you'll find what they have, what they call red risks,

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and there's a whole bunch of red risks that they have not solved.

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And the biggest one is radiation.

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And radiation comes in the form of what I call,

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22 caliber bullets and,

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rifle bullets and armor piercing radiation.

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And the armor piercing radiation are cosmic rays.

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Now, they don't

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they don't, very few make it to Earth because of the magnetosphere.

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But in outer space, these, these armor piercing,

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armor piercing radiation can go through anything.

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And if you try to shield,

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if you try to give astronauts a lot of shielding,

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what happens is the cosmic rays penetrate the shielding,

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and they create a cascade of secondary particles.

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So shrapnel, as it were.

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And the shrapnel is still dangerous.

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And and to give you an example of how dangerous it is, between the Apollo

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16 and 17 missions, there was an intense solar radiation storm.

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So cosmic rays come from outside the solar system.

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But the sun also produces this high energy radiation.

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Between Apollo 16 and 17, there was a radiation storm

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that if Apollo astronauts

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had been in space between the Earth and the moon, they would have died.

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Now, that same radiation,

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the solar radiation and cosmic radiation is not stopped on

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on the moon, on Mars or in interplanetary space.

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There's nothing to stop it.

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So the the people, astronauts who land on the moon

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or who attempt to get to Mars are going to be exposed to this,

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and it's one of those red risks

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that has not been solved, and it will not be solved.

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So if someone were to say to you,

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Dennis, look to their going to come up with shielding.

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What would you say to that? Well,

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you could shield it, but then you'd have to have,

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an object the size of the Earth with a magnetic field

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the size of the Earths, to shield it.

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So I'm not sure you could do that in space.

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But I should say that although, obviously they've not had any humans,

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in interplanetary space for any length of time.

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They have done experimental studies on Earth with animals

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in particle accelerators that they exposed to simulated cosmic radiation.

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And so they have solid laboratory experiments, evidence

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that this cosmic radiation does cause damage to cells, to tissues

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and to whole organs, all of the organs of the body.

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So, it's not possible

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to shield yourself from cosmic radiation.

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You had an interesting segment?

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It was called brain damage from armor piercing radiation.

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You talk about that a little bit. Well, yeah.

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First of all, you have you have brain damage from,

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cosmic rays from radiation, but then you have

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the brain is is weightless, and the brain is just like pudding.

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It's not a very solid organ.

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And so the brain tends to float around in the skull in weightlessness.

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And so at the same time, it's

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being bombarded by cosmic radiation and other radiation

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it's shifting shape, and it's undergoing all sorts of,

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physical changes due to the weightlessness.

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Now, there has been research with animals and MRI

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studies with astronauts that show that this happens.

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And they also show that, it creates psychological impacts.

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There's a thing called there's a phenomenon called space brain.

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Astronauts, recognize that

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they get what's called space brain.

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And that's where they get foggy.

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They can't concentrate.

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And it's because their their brains are undergoing all of these insults, both

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from radiation and from

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weightlessness, but also, toxic chemicals.

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The interior of spacecraft,

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has all sorts of toxic chemicals that come from plastics

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and so forth.

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So there's all of these insults going on, to the brain

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that caused this kind of, psychological impact.

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And the eyes are

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also strangely, susceptible

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to problems from weightlessness.

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Yes. The minute the astronauts

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go onto the International Space Station, their

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their vision starts to get cloudy.

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Because the,

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they’re not sure exactly why they think it has to do with weightlessness effect

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on the on the eye, but it gets cloudier and cloudier

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and a lot of astronauts on the space station have to start wearing glasses.

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And it gets worse.

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And they don't know specifically what causes this.

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They do know that it's that it's almost inevitable.

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So you have a situation where, astronauts

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who go on deep space missions or to the moon.

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They're going to their eyes are going to get more cloudy.

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They may even go blind. They're not sure.

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What's going to happen.

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And also, they undergo these brain changes, too.

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So imagine an astronaut who, has been in space for nine months

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with all these insults, and then they have to land on Mars,

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and their bones are weak, and their muscles are weak, and their

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their brains are not working right. They can't see very well.

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And instantly they have to transition to to a functional status.

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And wearing a 100 pound spacesuit and going out and doing things to survive.

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There are things you don’t hear about very often.

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And, I think this book is very interesting to bring up, these topics.

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And we're just we're just we're just on the surface of it.

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And I know there's a lot to talk about, but, you know, we have to be careful

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not to confuse our audience with too many things at once.

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It's just sort of, especially since,

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you know, we've grown up, many of us, being told

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that, you know, all of these challenges are going to fall away

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because of human ingenuity and this almost predestined,

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fate.

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And it's in science fiction programs all the time.

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Just these ways to address things

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like gravity, like weightlessness.

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We'll just turn the ship.

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We'll just we'll just rotate it.

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You know, the 2001,

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I think Space Odyssey famously addressed that in the beginning.

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And a lot of people know that if

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if you're in a rotating, vessel, it can simulate gravity.

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Why can't that be used

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on a trip to Mars, Dennis?

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Well, well, first of all, building a rotating

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nobody NASA has never considered seriously building

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rotating spacecraft because they know that would be incredibly expensive.

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You'd have to have all this machinery.

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It would have to work perfectly if you wanted.

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If somebody if an astronaut wanted to go outside,

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they would actually have

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to stop the space station so that, he or she didn't get thrown off.

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And then there'd be this Coriolis effect,

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that where your feet are going slower than your head.

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You know, it's like being on a merry go round where you hanging your head out,

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and it gets you can't...

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people can't cope with that.

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And so nobody has ever, seriously considered artificial gravity.

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If you wanted to have artificial gravity work,

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you'd have to have a space station the size of a city

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to get rid of the Coriolis effect and deal with it.

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But, it's just not considered practical at all.

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Right.

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I mean, that seems like a simple solution, but but engineering wise, that's huge.

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Economics wise, that's huge.

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And then let's say you want to have a colony on Mars.

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You still have reduced gravity

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on Mars and definitely on the moon.

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What is, Mars?

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It’s, 40%?

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That's still that's not weightless, but that's going to

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probably have an effect on human

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human beings living there for an extended period of time.

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Actually. Yes. Absolutely.

00:15:09:03 - 00:15:13:04
They're not sure that people can even, survive

00:15:13:04 - 00:15:18:03
well, at 40% gravity, because we evolved in 100% gravity.

00:15:18:10 - 00:15:23:16
So even if, you say, oh, there is gravity on Mars, it's only 40%.

00:15:23:16 - 00:15:27:13
And so it has huge effects, all sorts of effects for example,

00:15:27:19 - 00:15:30:18
because Mars has lower gravity, dust storms

00:15:30:18 - 00:15:34:18
can be just hell because the dust will stay in the in the air,

00:15:34:18 - 00:15:37:18
the atmosphere for weeks on end.

00:15:38:08 - 00:15:41:08
So and then, of course, as I said,

00:15:41:18 - 00:15:45:21
when an astronaut, lands on Mars after being in space

00:15:46:04 - 00:15:49:19
for, for nine months, even though it's 40% gravity,

00:15:50:01 - 00:15:55:22
they have to weigh 100, 150 pound on Mars spacesuit to cope.

00:15:56:03 - 00:15:59:08
And so even though the Mars, gravity is lower,

00:15:59:08 - 00:16:02:11
it's still profoundly, affecting.

00:16:03:21 - 00:16:04:11
Right.

00:16:04:11 - 00:16:08:02
And then there's, there's issues, that you bring up in the book

00:16:08:02 - 00:16:11:11
that you don't see often addressed even in science fiction.

00:16:11:23 - 00:16:15:13
Regolith or

00:16:15:19 - 00:16:18:19
sharp, dust on the moon,

00:16:19:00 - 00:16:23:05
hasn't been smoothed by winds or erosion.

00:16:23:13 - 00:16:26:07
It's basically due to,

00:16:26:07 - 00:16:30:18
meteoroids or meteoric,

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:35:01
explosions and abrasions and, and radiation. It’s very sharp.

00:16:35:14 - 00:16:39:23
And there's a lot of experience, from the lunar missions

00:16:39:23 - 00:16:43:08
when it comes to how abrasive it is for

00:16:43:08 - 00:16:46:10
suits during these short missions.

00:16:46:10 - 00:16:47:15
These short missions.

00:16:47:15 - 00:16:52:02
Now, that, this  lunar dust

00:16:52:02 - 00:16:56:06
just degrades spacesuits, that it's very hazardous to humans.

00:16:56:18 - 00:17:02:07
So could you talk about the dust hazards that, we really don't see a lot about?

00:17:03:11 - 00:17:05:07
Yeah, they really dismissed

00:17:05:07 - 00:17:08:11
they downplayed the dangers of dust.

00:17:08:22 - 00:17:12:13
But the Apollo astronauts noticed that they all got lung problems,

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:14:17
from the dust.

00:17:14:17 - 00:17:17:17
And they all got what they call lunar hay fever.

00:17:18:04 - 00:17:21:04
And also it began to abrade their suits.

00:17:21:08 - 00:17:23:06
It got into electronics.

00:17:23:06 - 00:17:26:01
And this dust is not dust like on Earth.

00:17:26:01 - 00:17:29:23
It's, imagine dust that is as sharp as razor blades

00:17:30:17 - 00:17:34:11
and they also have really weird problems because of,

00:17:35:14 - 00:17:37:01
the gravity on Mars.

00:17:37:01 - 00:17:40:00
They get what they call dust bullets.

00:17:40:00 - 00:17:44:19
If a large spacecraft lands on the moon,

00:17:45:08 - 00:17:49:02
the explosion of, dust and rocks and so forth can send

00:17:49:02 - 00:17:52:17
rocks at high speeds across the whole lunar surface.

00:17:53:09 - 00:17:56:16
So if you're near a spacecraft, it's landing on the moon.

00:17:57:01 - 00:17:58:07
You know, you can have something

00:17:58:07 - 00:18:01:20
that did damage to your to your suit or to the habitat.

00:18:02:01 - 00:18:05:09
So they have dust bullets, on the moon.

00:18:05:14 - 00:18:08:14
Well, Mars is terrible in another way.

00:18:08:16 - 00:18:11:16
The dust on Mars is, has been,

00:18:11:16 - 00:18:14:16
smoothed by the winds, but it's toxic.

00:18:15:00 - 00:18:18:21
It has chemicals in it that that are toxic.

00:18:18:21 - 00:18:23:11
So the whole business of, in The Martian, where he was growing potatoes on Mars,

00:18:23:19 - 00:18:28:15
he would have been poisoned immediately by the poison, in the dust.

00:18:29:00 - 00:18:29:08
Yeah.

00:18:29:08 - 00:18:33:10
In the book, I think you say that it's a class of, perchlorates. Yes.

00:18:33:22 - 00:18:38:08
So there's actually a lot of, perchlorate in in Martian soil.

00:18:38:16 - 00:18:41:20
And that's another, toxic aspect.

00:18:42:08 - 00:18:44:02
You don't hear about that.

00:18:44:02 - 00:18:47:02
You don't hear about the radiation hazard, the perchlorate.

00:18:47:11 - 00:18:49:16
Now, let's just talk about distance and time.

00:18:49:16 - 00:18:50:01
I mean,

00:18:51:00 - 00:18:52:19
for a mars mission.

00:18:52:19 - 00:18:55:08
And Mars is relatively close, right?

00:18:55:08 - 00:18:56:03
I mean, we're talking

00:18:56:03 - 00:19:00:00
we're not even talking about interstellar, which, I mean, that's just

00:19:01:04 - 00:19:04:15
that's a whole other category of not going to happen.

00:19:05:15 - 00:19:08:11
In my opinion. There's the

00:19:08:11 - 00:19:11:14
the economics is not there, you know, just the distance.

00:19:12:06 - 00:19:15:06
But let's just talk about these concerns,

00:19:15:14 - 00:19:19:17
these concerns of radiation, toxic environment,

00:19:20:04 - 00:19:23:04
microgravity or what we call weightlessness.

00:19:23:14 - 00:19:27:00
And the distance and time

00:19:27:00 - 00:19:30:03
it takes to go from Earth to Mars.

00:19:30:03 - 00:19:31:22
It's not a straight shot, either.

00:19:31:22 - 00:19:36:12
I mean, it's, you know, you look at Mars, you say, oh, that's so far away.

00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:04
Orbital mechanics is such that,

00:19:40:04 - 00:19:43:20
and the energy that that you use to get off the Earth, you're going to have

00:19:43:20 - 00:19:47:09
to take these long trajectories, and we don't need to get into it.

00:19:47:09 - 00:19:51:00
But, you know, you got the conjunction class and the opposition

00:19:51:00 - 00:19:54:00
class launches all that type of stuff. But

00:19:55:00 - 00:19:56:19
what's the average

00:19:56:19 - 00:20:02:05
trip look like or what's what's an optimal trip look like to Mars?

00:20:02:05 - 00:20:06:18
What's the amount of time and before you get there.

00:20:06:18 - 00:20:10:14
And then how long do you have to stay on the surface if you land and not an

00:20:10:14 - 00:20:11:22
orbital mission around Mars.

00:20:11:22 - 00:20:16:15
But if you land, you're going to have to wait for another launch window.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:22:21
So what does an optimal trip to Mars look like, and how long

00:20:23:03 - 00:20:27:06
would a human being or a group of human beings have to endure,

00:20:27:23 - 00:20:30:18
these hazards

00:20:30:18 - 00:20:34:01
if they were on such a trip. You'd be in your spacecraft,

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:36:08
which would be the size of a motorhome

00:20:36:08 - 00:20:39:08
with several other people, 3 or 4 other people for nine months.

00:20:39:21 - 00:20:42:21
There are no windows because there's nothing to look out at.

00:20:43:01 - 00:20:43:18
You're weightless.

00:20:43:18 - 00:20:46:09
You're you're being exposed to gravity for that,

00:20:46:09 - 00:20:49:09
 to weightlessness for that nine months.

00:20:49:13 - 00:20:50:21
You have to eat packaged food.

00:20:50:21 - 00:20:52:15
You can't take a bath.

00:20:52:15 - 00:20:55:04
It really gets smelly in there. And then.

00:20:55:04 - 00:20:57:04
And then you get to Mars

00:20:57:04 - 00:21:00:13
and you go down to the surface, and you have to be there for a month.

00:21:01:10 - 00:21:04:06
That's one one of the, one of the types of missions.

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:08:01
So you have to deal with being, at 40%, Earth

00:21:08:01 - 00:21:12:04
gravity for a month inside a spacesuit or inside a habitat.

00:21:12:04 - 00:21:18:08
And then you have to take off again and have another nine months, back to Earth.

00:21:19:01 - 00:21:24:03
And so that it's just at this whole time you're exposed to except when you're

00:21:24:03 - 00:21:27:08
on the Martian surface, you're exposed to weightlessness, you're exposed to,

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:31:18
toxic chemicals, you're exposed to radiation.

00:21:31:23 - 00:21:36:23
And you also have to cope with alarms that that require you to fix the spaceship.

00:21:37:11 - 00:21:42:01
And, the ISS has several dozen alarms a year

00:21:42:10 - 00:21:45:22
where they have to fix the ISS or die.

00:21:47:00 - 00:21:50:05
So you have to carry tons and tons of equipment,

00:21:50:05 - 00:21:52:23
of spare parts, tons and tons of food.

00:21:52:23 - 00:21:57:03
You have to figure out how to get rid of your waste, and so forth.

00:21:57:03 - 00:22:00:03
So it's just it's hell in space.

00:22:00:20 - 00:22:03:02
You you have this this radiation.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:06:16
You have the the normal psychological effects of being cramped

00:22:06:16 - 00:22:10:02
into these quarters, with other people.

00:22:10:13 - 00:22:14:23
But then you have, you know, psychological degradation

00:22:14:23 - 00:22:19:09
is expected from radiation, weightlessness, vision problems,

00:22:19:20 - 00:22:22:20
from microgravity or weightlessness,

00:22:23:14 - 00:22:27:16
then the alarms, then then all these things

00:22:27:16 - 00:22:31:16
that have to be addressed, these repairs,

00:22:32:05 - 00:22:35:19
you're going to have to do it in a degraded state.

00:22:37:17 - 00:22:41:05
Yes. And in fact, it's impossible, at least in my,

00:22:41:05 - 00:22:44:13
to my mind, to train astronauts to handle all these things.

00:22:44:13 - 00:22:48:05
There was one study that said that, that astronauts

00:22:49:01 - 00:22:52:22
that are supposed to go to Mars need to learn 2000 skills.

00:22:53:21 - 00:22:57:05
And, even the astronauts go to the ISS,

00:22:57:05 - 00:23:00:20
they've said I was supposed to do something, but I completely forgot

00:23:00:21 - 00:23:03:21
how to do it because I was trained years ago.

00:23:04:16 - 00:23:09:03
And and thus, I need to rely on the people on the ground.

00:23:09:03 - 00:23:13:02
Well, you can't rely on the people on the ground when you're in mid, mid

00:23:13:03 - 00:23:18:13
flight to Mars because the delay and so forth and you're stuck.

00:23:18:13 - 00:23:21:01
You can't you can't turn around, go back.

00:23:21:01 - 00:23:24:05
Because you're on this, this

00:23:25:03 - 00:23:28:23
trip toward Mars that, will take you there.

00:23:28:23 - 00:23:30:00
And the only thing you could do

00:23:30:00 - 00:23:31:17
would be to loop around the planet and come back,

00:23:31:17 - 00:23:33:18
but that would still be another nine months.

00:23:33:18 - 00:23:37:07
So it's it's just an unsolvable problem, in my opinion.

00:23:37:15 - 00:23:41:05
And one thing I would I would suggest people watch is

00:23:41:10 - 00:23:44:16
when somebody comes back from the International Space Station,

00:23:45:00 - 00:23:49:13
you will never see an astronaut get out of the capsule and walk away.

00:23:50:03 - 00:23:55:06
They put them on a stretcher because when you come back from Earth, 

00:23:55:06 - 00:23:58:00
from the ISS you are crippled.

00:23:58:00 - 00:23:59:09
You can't see very well.

00:23:59:09 - 00:24:01:02
Your brain is foggy.

00:24:01:02 - 00:24:04:02
Your bones and muscles have deteriorated.

00:24:04:02 - 00:24:09:10
And so NASA does not very often show what happens when an astronaut

00:24:09:10 - 00:24:12:21
actually gets out of a capsule and goes onto that stretcher.

00:24:14:08 - 00:24:16:23
Let's say we say, okay,

00:24:16:23 - 00:24:19:12
we can send someone to Mars

00:24:19:12 - 00:24:22:12
land and even get them back.

00:24:22:17 - 00:24:26:12
Let's say that's and you're saying no, space is a serial killer.

00:24:26:12 - 00:24:30:01
You know, there's all these problems and the synergistic effect

00:24:30:01 - 00:24:33:21
of all these problems just makes it a nonstarter.

00:24:33:21 - 00:24:37:18
And I tend to agree with you, I definitely wouldn't want to be on the mission.

00:24:37:18 - 00:24:41:01
And I don't know if would be ethical to send anyone on that mission.

00:24:41:01 - 00:24:42:14
As you raise in your book.

00:24:42:14 - 00:24:45:14
But let's say you can do that.

00:24:45:18 - 00:24:49:01
This notion of having a colony on Mars or that

00:24:49:01 - 00:24:52:19
humans are going to adapt to other planets.

00:24:53:09 - 00:24:56:22
Looking at just this, it's just it's crazy.

00:24:56:22 - 00:25:02:17
Even Elon Musk has said that a colony on Mars would cost $1 trillion.

00:25:03:10 - 00:25:05:17
Now, I should also add that I did.

00:25:05:17 - 00:25:10:20
I did a section on what it would be like to be a colonist on Mars.

00:25:11:01 - 00:25:14:22
You would be at constantly, you would constantly required

00:25:15:03 - 00:25:19:04
supplies from Earth because you wouldn't be able to grow food on Mars,

00:25:19:12 - 00:25:23:14
because you'd need acres and acres and acres of, of, enclosed,

00:25:23:15 - 00:25:27:23
growth chambers to grow for, for a minimal number of people, you'd need

00:25:27:23 - 00:25:32:05
specialized plants, you need specialized equipment, you need to recycle everything.

00:25:32:09 - 00:25:36:18
So you'd have to have a constant supply of food and spare parts.

00:25:37:02 - 00:25:40:02
So a Mars colony would be constantly

00:25:40:07 - 00:25:43:02
in danger, of collapse,

00:25:43:02 - 00:25:47:04
because they would require this constant supply of, of, equipment.

00:25:47:11 - 00:25:48:21
So no viability there.

00:25:48:21 - 00:25:50:15
I mean, the argument of Musk's, though,

00:25:50:15 - 00:25:53:22
on the other hand, is if we don't become a multi-planet species

00:25:53:22 - 00:25:56:22
and he's I think he's ripping off other people when it comes to saying this.

00:25:56:22 - 00:26:01:10
I mean, it's part of old Rand reports and stuff, Wernher von Braun, whatever.

00:26:01:15 - 00:26:04:15
If we don't become a multi-planet species, we will...

00:26:04:16 - 00:26:06:15
We face extinction.

00:26:06:15 - 00:26:10:10
Well, I don't just I human beings aren't going to be viable,

00:26:11:14 - 00:26:12:18
you know,

00:26:12:18 - 00:26:17:14
and autonomous aren't on an alien planet, given... it's just not going to happen.

00:26:18:02 - 00:26:20:01
Yeah, I say that

00:26:20:01 - 00:26:22:13
let's let's forget about the space frontier.

00:26:22:13 - 00:26:25:13
Let's have an environmental frontier on Earth.

00:26:25:16 - 00:26:28:22
We don't know all of the species that exist on Earth.

00:26:29:11 - 00:26:31:10
And we haven't explored Earth yet.

00:26:31:10 - 00:26:32:20
So let's explore Earth.

00:26:32:20 - 00:26:37:02
If you go, if you go to Google and you type in new species discovered,

00:26:37:15 - 00:26:40:02
you will find all sorts of stories about new species

00:26:40:02 - 00:26:41:16
constantly being discovered on Earth.

00:26:41:16 - 00:26:46:07
So, I want my my takeaway message from my own,

00:26:47:02 - 00:26:51:02
personal, feelings is let's finish exploring Earth.

00:26:51:05 - 00:26:54:20
Let's have an environmental frontier where we concentrate on Earth.

00:26:54:20 - 00:26:58:21
We concentrate on, preserving Earth and understanding Earth

00:26:59:07 - 00:27:02:10
before we spend tons and tons and tons of money sending,

00:27:02:19 - 00:27:05:22
sending astronauts on a one way trip.

00:27:05:22 - 00:27:09:09
And I'm afraid it would be a one way trip to to another planet.

00:27:09:14 - 00:27:11:16
And then they talk about terraforming Mars.

00:27:11:16 - 00:27:15:00
Well, that's that's first of all, nobody's figured out how to do it.

00:27:15:16 - 00:27:19:15
And secondly, it would take centuries to do, and it probably will...

00:27:19:15 - 00:27:21:18
You're not going to create a I mean,

00:27:23:00 - 00:27:26:08
magnetic field around Mars, I don't know.

00:27:26:08 - 00:27:28:20
And how long have they been talking about this?

00:27:28:20 - 00:27:31:20
I mean, it goes back to the 40s with  Oberth,

00:27:32:08 - 00:27:37:17
with, Walt Disney was part of the push back in the day.

00:27:37:17 - 00:27:40:18
I don't know a you you remember that, don't you?

00:27:41:01 - 00:27:42:16
Wernher von... oh, yeah.

00:27:42:16 - 00:27:46:12
I was a big fan back then of Wernher Von Braun and Disney and so forth.

00:27:46:12 - 00:27:49:12
Yeah, they're what I call cosmic cheerleaders

00:27:49:19 - 00:27:52:02
that, that really are advocating Mars.

00:27:52:02 - 00:27:55:04
And these this includes people, the billionaires.

00:27:55:04 - 00:27:58:04
It includes, profit seeking corporations.

00:27:58:10 - 00:28:00:14
It includes NASA itself.

00:28:00:14 - 00:28:03:14
It includes these space, space advocates and so forth.

00:28:03:16 - 00:28:06:06
And it's basically just just hand-waving,

00:28:06:06 - 00:28:09:06
that they want to go they want to go do this.

00:28:09:11 - 00:28:12:08
But the hard numbers are that it would cost

00:28:12:08 - 00:28:15:08
$210 billion to mount,

00:28:17:07 - 00:28:18:16
a Mars mission.

00:28:18:16 - 00:28:21:15
And it just it's just why it's not worth it.

00:28:21:15 - 00:28:24:10
Let's spend the $200 billion on Earth.

00:28:24:10 - 00:28:26:09
Where it will do some good.

00:28:26:09 - 00:28:31:09
I really this jumped out of me in your book... I love this.

00:28:31:09 - 00:28:32:08
You wrote.

00:28:32:08 - 00:28:37:03
I would argue that admitting that we are deeply dependent on our home

00:28:37:03 - 00:28:40:22
planet would help us develop a productive humility

00:28:41:05 - 00:28:44:05
that would make us value our planet more.

00:28:44:06 - 00:28:47:06
There is there is life in the solar system, and it's here

00:28:48:13 - 00:28:52:06
and let's explore Earth.

00:28:52:06 - 00:28:53:22
Let's let's value Earth.

00:28:53:22 - 00:28:55:12
You mentioned intelligent life.

00:28:55:12 - 00:28:56:22
It's here on Earth.

00:28:56:22 - 00:29:00:13
I mean, it's almost like we also assume

00:29:00:13 - 00:29:03:15
that there's just intelligent life all over the place.

00:29:03:22 - 00:29:07:23
How do we know that intelligence is a convergent evolutionary phenomenon?

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:12:08
You know, I mean, maybe life there is life elsewhere,

00:29:12:18 - 00:29:17:01
but maybe intelligence is just not all it's cracked up to be.

00:29:17:18 - 00:29:21:12
Maybe is not adaptive in a lot of places or anywhere else.

00:29:21:16 - 00:29:23:14
We've been searching for a long time.

00:29:23:14 - 00:29:25:12
And there's the Fermi paradox.

00:29:25:12 - 00:29:29:13
The nuclear physicist Fermi said, well, if there is intelligent life elsewhere,

00:29:29:22 - 00:29:31:04
where are they?

00:29:31:04 - 00:29:32:20
Why would they contact us?

00:29:32:20 - 00:29:34:21
Where are they? Yeah, exactly.

00:29:34:21 - 00:29:36:23
So, you know, I have to assume that somewhere

00:29:36:23 - 00:29:39:21
in this vast universe there is there is intelligent life.

00:29:39:21 - 00:29:44:14
But I, I don't know if it's a, it's a survival, survival trait.

00:29:44:14 - 00:29:45:18
Yeah.

00:29:45:18 - 00:29:51:21
I, I think we may find out over the next century or so, on our own terms.

00:29:52:06 - 00:29:55:21
But, I think I think we need to take advantage

00:29:55:21 - 00:30:01:08
of the intelligence we have now and and do something, productive with it in

00:30:01:08 - 00:30:07:07
terms of maintaining our own environment and, and, maintaining our, Earth.

00:30:07:17 - 00:30:08:21
I do want to be fair to you.

00:30:08:21 - 00:30:12:17
You are an advocate for space exploration,

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:16:09
robotic, going out into space, but using,

00:30:16:18 - 00:30:20:19
you know, robotics that, you know, sending humans. Why?

00:30:21:12 - 00:30:24:16
Why if you can send probes, why send humans?

00:30:24:16 - 00:30:26:22
It just increase the cost.

00:30:26:22 - 00:30:29:22
It's just this romantic notion.

00:30:29:22 - 00:30:34:05
But there was talk that, you know, at as things evolved,

00:30:34:05 - 00:30:38:11
while you're not going to get funding unless you have the humans involved,

00:30:38:11 - 00:30:38:20
you know.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:41:20
No Buck Rogers, no bucks,

00:30:41:20 - 00:30:44:09
thought on that.

00:30:44:09 - 00:30:45:23
Yeah. No Buck Rogers, no bucks.

00:30:45:23 - 00:30:47:15
Well, I had this great idea, though.

00:30:47:15 - 00:30:51:09
I think we need to concentrate on artificially intelligent robots

00:30:51:10 - 00:30:54:19
and send them everywhere in the solar system to explore

00:30:55:05 - 00:30:58:22
and have a high, high speed, high bandwidth,

00:30:58:22 - 00:31:02:20
connection to Earth to send the data back and create a virtual cosmos,

00:31:03:12 - 00:31:07:01
a virtual reality cosmos, so that everybody on Earth

00:31:07:01 - 00:31:10:07
could walk on Venus, we could explore Martian caves.

00:31:10:07 - 00:31:13:10
We could go, into the sub,

00:31:13:10 - 00:31:16:10
sub ice, oceans of of Europa.

00:31:16:13 - 00:31:20:01
And so that's that's what I think you were toolmakers.

00:31:20:01 - 00:31:23:10
Let's make the tools to explore the

00:31:23:14 - 00:31:26:22
the solar system and NASA's already doing that.

00:31:27:10 - 00:31:30:10
They're kind of not making it, obviously...

00:31:30:11 - 00:31:33:11
making it obvious that's what they're doing.

00:31:33:11 - 00:31:35:15
But there's some really cool robots

00:31:35:15 - 00:31:38:15
that they're developing that are actually going to be launched

00:31:38:18 - 00:31:40:02
soon.

00:31:40:02 - 00:31:45:03
There's one there's one called, CADRE for the cooperative,

00:31:45:09 - 00:31:46:07
it's a mouthful,

00:31:46:07 - 00:31:49:13
cooperative, autonomous, distributed, robotic exploration.

00:31:49:13 - 00:31:51:03
Okay. Big word.

00:31:51:03 - 00:31:53:22
What happens is a lander comes down on the moon,

00:31:53:22 - 00:31:55:20
and it's being launched this year.

00:31:55:20 - 00:31:57:02
A lander comes down,

00:31:58:04 - 00:31:59:09
it lowers these

00:31:59:09 - 00:32:03:04
little, little wheeled robots, three of them,

00:32:03:13 - 00:32:07:01
and they go scurrying across the lunar surface and mapping it.

00:32:07:11 - 00:32:10:08
Using, ground penetrating radar.

00:32:10:08 - 00:32:12:21
But they're cooperating with each other.

00:32:12:21 - 00:32:13:12
It has nothing.

00:32:13:12 - 00:32:15:11
They don't even consult with humans.

00:32:15:11 - 00:32:16:22
They're talking to each other and saying, okay,

00:32:16:22 - 00:32:19:11
you go over here and you go over here and I'll go over here.

00:32:19:11 - 00:32:23:20
So that's the kind of thing that can be done with artificial intelligence.

00:32:23:20 - 00:32:28:14
And we all know that artificial intelligence is exploding on Earth.

00:32:28:22 - 00:32:32:14
Well, I think we need to apply it to, the solar system.

00:32:32:20 - 00:32:33:05
Yeah.

00:32:33:05 - 00:32:35:22
The you know, there may be a good job for artificial intelligence.

00:32:35:22 - 00:32:39:09
We just did a show on how they're using it, for genetic engineering

00:32:39:09 - 00:32:43:16
and, very, very, dubious of that project.

00:32:43:16 - 00:32:47:02
And also the AI it really robs or

00:32:47:04 - 00:32:51:05
steals or uses a lot of energy and it is not free.

00:32:51:20 - 00:32:54:20
But but I do hear what you're saying.

00:32:54:22 - 00:32:57:08
Let's do space science if we're going to do that.

00:32:57:08 - 00:33:00:17
But why do we need this infantile notion of Buck Rogers?

00:33:00:23 - 00:33:01:17
Yeah, I'm.

00:33:01:17 - 00:33:04:07
I'm advocating what I call neuronauts.

00:33:04:07 - 00:33:08:19
And neuronauts are artificially intelligent, spacecraft and landers

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:12:23
that work with scientists, on Earth, and they collaborate.

00:33:13:14 - 00:33:18:03
And the scientists on Earth say, okay, listen, we need to find out this

00:33:18:14 - 00:33:21:22
and the artificially intelligent lander or,

00:33:22:10 - 00:33:25:16
rover or spacecraft says, okay, I'm going to do it this way.

00:33:25:16 - 00:33:26:02
All right?

00:33:26:02 - 00:33:28:15
And the scientists say, well, okay, go ahead.

00:33:28:15 - 00:33:30:11
And it goes and does that.

00:33:30:11 - 00:33:34:20
And there's another really cool, robot that's going to be launched

00:33:34:20 - 00:33:39:03
in 2028 called Dragonfly, And it's going to land on Titan.

00:33:39:20 - 00:33:43:02
And it looks like this bobsled with propellers

00:33:43:12 - 00:33:47:19
and dragonfly is going to decide for itself where it wants to go.

00:33:48:08 - 00:33:51:08
And dragonfly is going to say, okay, the scientists are going to

00:33:51:08 - 00:33:54:08
say, look, we need to find out this, this, this and this and dragonfly.

00:33:54:08 - 00:33:58:23
I say, okay, then I'm going to go up in the atmosphere of Titan.

00:33:58:23 - 00:34:00:23
I'm going to go around and I'm gonna look for a spot

00:34:00:23 - 00:34:02:14
that's going to help answer that.

00:34:02:14 - 00:34:05:16
And I'm going to land and I take samples and drill and so forth,

00:34:06:00 - 00:34:07:03
and then I'm going to go over here,

00:34:07:03 - 00:34:10:09
and then I'm going to go over here, and it's going to do it on its own.

00:34:10:21 - 00:34:14:21
So the bottom line is NASA is already doing this.

00:34:15:09 - 00:34:19:22
And let's take this massive budget that we're spending on landing a few,

00:34:20:16 - 00:34:23:14
humans on a radiation blasted surface

00:34:23:14 - 00:34:26:18
and instead spend it on these artificially intelligent robots

00:34:27:16 - 00:34:30:13
that are going to get far more information, data,

00:34:30:13 - 00:34:33:20
and send it back to Earth, and then let us experience it for ourselves.

00:34:33:20 - 00:34:37:00
And let's keep all artificial intelligence robots

00:34:37:00 - 00:34:40:00
on other planets and moons of other planets.

00:34:40:07 - 00:34:42:08
We could agree on that. We could agree on that.

00:34:42:08 - 00:34:43:02
Let's put it that way, Dennis.

00:34:43:02 - 00:34:47:06
I absolutely agree. Because there's some aspects to

00:34:47:06 - 00:34:50:06
AI that are a little scary too, you know.

00:34:50:09 - 00:34:51:10
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:52:17 - 00:34:54:04
Yeah, I agree.

00:34:54:04 - 00:34:56:05
March 31st is the release date.

00:34:56:05 - 00:34:59:11
So how would anyone find out more about this book or how to get it?

00:34:59:21 - 00:35:01:23
It's on Amazon.

00:35:01:23 - 00:35:04:23
And there's a website, earthbound the book dot com

00:35:04:23 - 00:35:09:10
that has, table of contents, the introduction, the references.

00:35:09:22 - 00:35:13:07
And I should say that one of the reasons that I made it,

00:35:13:07 - 00:35:15:10
a pretty rigorous technical book

00:35:15:10 - 00:35:19:02
is that I didn't want people to say, well, you just you're just hand-waving.

00:35:19:06 - 00:35:25:12
You don't have the data, so it has 644 references to scientific papers

00:35:25:18 - 00:35:29:11
so that any scientist who says that I don't know what I'm talking about

00:35:29:11 - 00:35:33:13
can go back to the scientific papers and reports, that I cite.

00:35:34:21 - 00:35:37:12
Let's hope this starts to get some coverage.

00:35:37:12 - 00:35:40:04
I think it's very important now.

00:35:40:04 - 00:35:43:00
And that's one of the reasons why I ask you on the show, is because we

00:35:43:00 - 00:35:48:11
right now, the techno bros are having a lot of outsized,

00:35:48:11 - 00:35:53:15
I would say, outsized influence, on our culture right now.

00:35:53:15 - 00:35:56:16
And they they’re really pushing this,

00:35:56:16 - 00:36:00:00
you know, humanity is going to seed the stars

00:36:00:04 - 00:36:04:06
and I don't know, do you think they really believe that?

00:36:05:17 - 00:36:07:09
Well, they do,

00:36:07:09 - 00:36:10:09
but I see I see some cracks in the facade.

00:36:10:20 - 00:36:14:01
I see that Musk has just opened

00:36:14:08 - 00:36:18:21
a, request for proposals to study

00:36:19:06 - 00:36:23:01
the biological and physical physiological effects of space.

00:36:23:16 - 00:36:25:10
And he's just starting. I think he won't.

00:36:25:10 - 00:36:29:03
They they're not saying this publicly, not saying it out loud, but I think

00:36:29:03 - 00:36:33:23
even Musk is beginning to realize these, these huge obstacles that he faces.

00:36:33:23 - 00:36:36:23
So even though he's a rocket man,

00:36:36:23 - 00:36:40:22
I think he's he's having a little, or at least space X,

00:36:41:10 - 00:36:45:02
is having a little, some second thoughts or some,

00:36:45:07 - 00:36:49:16
some more sophisticated thoughts about what the effects of of space are.

00:36:49:17 - 00:36:52:14
You know, now that we're talking about it, I think maybe Musk could try.

00:36:52:14 - 00:36:55:04
I think I think Musk oughta to try to get there.

00:36:58:02 - 00:36:59:22
If it's if it's Musk who's going

00:36:59:22 - 00:37:02:22
I'm all behind it. I'm all behind it.

00:37:03:15 - 00:37:04:04
You're not going to.

00:37:04:04 - 00:37:05:14
I know you're going to remain obscure on that.

00:37:05:14 - 00:37:06:19
Yes, I am.

00:37:06:19 - 00:37:10:02
Dennis Meredith, thank you for joining us and Breaking Green.

00:37:10:05 - 00:37:11:06
My pleasure Steve.

00:37:11:06 - 00:37:13:02
And again, thanks so much for having me on.